BARRY'S SHOES

SOME OF THIS IS FROM MEMORY SOME I RECORDED BY ACCIDENT. I WAS TRYING TO GET A FEEL FOR WHAT BARRY WOULD LIKE TO CONTRIBUTE TO MY DOCUMENTARY AS HES BEEN SO MUCH LARGER THAN LIFE THROUGHOUT THIS STORY...

BONES: I just wanted to talk to you because you are possibly the only person who has made more of an effort than I have to make sense of what Abdullah and Hamza were actually about, what they were saying…

BARRY: I thought it was all nonsense. Nonsense in as far as it didn’t make any sense.

BONES: But also in as far as the media perceiving him as a threat. Do you think that it is nonsense as well? Like.. I mean there’s conspiracy theorists, and there’s terrorists and because they were all so paranoid its hard to distinguish between the two (in the media) and you’ve been dealing with the reality on the street.

BARRY: The bit that I’ve found nonsensical is that the national media have puffed this person up to be something that he probably delighted in being.

BONES: Absolutely! (laughing) that’s exactly what I thought.

BARRY: It just seemed to me that the solution to the Abu Hamza problem was to actually stop giving him all the publicity that everyone was giving him and then the negative impact he was having on the Muslim community…the mainstream community…all of that was power…the fact that the newscasters would stand there and listen to what he said.

BONES: I mean I don’t know.. I spoke to Abdullah before I spoke to you last week, I mean you probably realized that I had done… and he was very upset by the allegations of violence against them from people inside. He said that’s totally against his beliefs…

BARRY: It might be against his beliefs but it happened.

BONES: You think it did?

BARRY: No. I know it did. So whats he talking about?

BONES: But that’s not going to be repeated in court?

BARRY: Well if people get prosecuted it’ll go to court. You know. There was intimidation and violence in here personally witnessed by me perpetrated by him. So I mean, what’s he talking about?

He threatened to murder me. So what’s he talking about?

BONES: So he threatened…?

BARRY: Well he threatened everybody didn’t he? Didn’t you see him?

BONES: Well I didn’t take it as a threat. I don’t know. I mean he was calling people kaffirs and that…

BARRY: When he says to people I’m going to fucking kill you, I think that’s construed as a threat.

BONES: Is that what he said?

BARRY: Yeah. Well. I didn’t take him seriously.

He…found it difficult to manage self- control didn’t he…And his lack of self control was one of the things which let him down. Hugely.

BONES: He's been phenomenally difficult to film. I mean I was trying to get them together with a viable production company the week after Hamza was arrested and he wouldn't even meet them.

I told him that I was after their side of the story. It was almost like they prefered all the stuff which portrayed them as threatening...He couldn't get his head round the idea that a non-Muslim would be doing this...

Also another thing I wanted to get on camera very much is the fact that if I had been doing a protest here in the street I probably wouldn’t have met you. I would have met guys with big riot shields.

BARRY: Not true.

BONES: Well…I mean there’s a difference isn’t there because of religion in this country. There’s a difference in the way that…

BARRY: Well that’s right though isn’t it? That’s the way it should be…

BONES: That’s interesting though…in any other country with this situation…

BARRY: Well I know from my experience of policing football abroad that there seems to be, in a lot of European countries ... a one off catch all response to any sort of public disorder or protest. Yes I agree they are not very tolerant are they a lot of our…cousins.

BONES: No..no…

BARRY: But part of our heritage in our country is that we are tolerant…

BONES: This is great. Exactly what I am after for my film.

BARRY: As long as their protest is reasonable and lawful we have facilitated it because to have moved them all on firstly would have taken lots and lots and lots more policemen, and secondly would have resulted in a few people getting arrested and the courts getting clogged up, and thirdly might have resulted in them walking away and sitting over there…and then there…and then there and what would be the point of that?

So has he not told you if they are coming back?

BONES: I don’t know. When I spoke to him he said that the brotherhood were still strong, but they were considering their position. I got the impression that they weren’t coming back.

BARRY: I think they might well come back but they know that if they do they’ll loose because the people in charge are stronger than they are…so what’s the point of that?

BONES: Yeah, I mean I asked him if they were going to come and stand back outside here and protest…

BARRY: It would be embarrassing for them wouldn’t it? Don’t you think they would be seen as loosing face?

BONES: I’ve got no idea I mean that’s the thing, I don’t want to direct them or advise them or be their media relations…I’m just trying to film reality.

BARRY: I’m saying to you that my take would be…It’s a bit sort of weak isn’t it? Go back and stand outside? So that the whole world can see that they’ve been kicked out of their mosque?

BONES: So was the numbers actually dwindling before…

BARRY: There was never anymore than 30 or 40 of them during the whole protest.

BONES: I’ve got film of up to 300 here in the street.

BARRY: Rubbish. It only ever came up to about here…(pointing)

BONES: Maybe about 150 or so…

BARRY: What you might have failed to appreciate…I don’t want to talk down to you because you might well understand this…About 30 or 40 people were Hamza’s supporters…lets call them that, and the rest of the people were just answering the call to prayer.

BONES: It was just a case of space wasn’t it? That’s what I thought.

BARRY: We never saw the size of Hamza’s supporters grow or diminish. It was always the same sort of (numbers)

BONES: I was thinking in terms of my film, about your own personal opinion of what Hamza was preaching, about talking to Abu Hamza (yourself) How much of a personal opinion you are allowed to give and how much you are not allowed to give, because Police aren’t supposed to…

BARRY: There isn’t any answer to that. I mean I don’t want to sound arrogant…I can say…what I like. I mean the junior officers can’t but I can say what I like because I am the commander.

BONES: And if they don’t like it they can sack you, like…

BARRY: Well they won’t. Its up to me. I am in charge. This is my responsibility.

What I wouldn’t say is anything that in anyway would prejudice the criminal trials which are in the pipeline…

BONES: Which is also what they (Abdullah and co) would say. I mean, if my documentary is about the few people who believe Hamza is innocent then that’s very much what I am trying to get to.

BARRY: Yes. Sure.

BONES: And I’m sort of the only person doing it, which has always sort of surprised me as well.

BARRY: Yeah, exactly.

BONES: I thought they’d be some really professional guys down here saying

Well if the guy says he’s innocent…lets hear it like, I mean that’s also the nature of Britain isn’t it to give someone a fair chance like.

BONES: You see what I don’t want, as I am not attatched to a production company is if I have the phone numbers of these guys. I don’t want press saying "He’s with them" or any of that bollocks. You know, I ain’t a Muslim.not in any sense of the imagination. Never been tempted.

BARRY: Sure.

BONES: I mean I don’t want to be picked up myself, you know. Like “He’s been talking to them” I mean I have been talking to them. For two years, like. I am very interested in what they have to say.

BARRY: Well you’ve been talking to me as well. We’re cool about that. There’s no problem.

BONES: That’s good to know.

There maybe some milage in this reference to “Punk Islamists” I mean in the way that they don’t care. They are very media unfriendly.,, They say they are not… but they don’t really care if people call them terrorists.

BARRY: They do a great deal of damage though don’t they… cause papers like the Sun and the Mail and the Daily Star portray things that they saying as mainstream Muslim thought.

BONES: But there must be a whole load of Muslims who actually believe that or..

BARRY: Yes...Yes...But the BNP don’t represent most of us do they?

BONES: No.

BARRY: Well then. That’s the way I see it. I mean they to me, I put them in the same bracket as some ridiculous right wing group who think that they some how speak for more than just a very few people that are a bit sad. That’s how I look at it. They are just a Muslim version of the BNP aren’t they?

BONES: That’s what the Mirror say.

BARRY: That’s what I say. The analogy doesn’t work if you follow it right through but

BONES: Well he’s never been racist to me like.

BARRY: Well its like, do the BNP claim to be terrorist? No. Do these lot condone terrorism? Yes they probably do. I mean in theory a lot of what they say is more inflammatory than the BNP say.

BONES: I mean I heard Hamza specifically say that he didn’t agree with any terrorist act in this country, but he didn’t condone cooperation with the Police either, I mean this must have been one of the hardest things for you to deal with is that Abdullah doesn’t believe in man-made law and so how…if you are Police.

BARRY: Its quite difficult isn’t it.

BONES: I mean how do you deal with someone who doesn’t agree with man-made law? (laughing)

BARRY: It’s a challenge isn’t it?

BONES: Another thing.. Do you remember a guy called Hajj? A really friendly old guy. Must have come to the meetings you had with the guys at the station when you were trying to get the Mosque open...

BARRY: An old Cypriot guy? Yes I remember him. Sat next to Abdullah telling him to calm down all the time.

BONES: He got sick of it and pulled out.

BARRY: Yes.

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